FWIW Ive noticed less perceived blast to the face with a Hellfire than with a Gen 2 Little Bastard. Ill check into the other brakes by area 419 and the beast. For more information on Tikka rifles, please visit tikka.fi/en-us. My question is, how much would that pound or pound and a half lighter rifle do for recoil? ORDER HERE Defcon 1 RIFLE Clamp-On Muzzle Brake for Non-Threaded Barrels . $75.00. INSTALLATION GUIDE for the Ghost LITE Tikka T3 Thread-On Muzzle Brake - 5/8 X 24 and M18 x 1.0 threading. Those who pursue big game such as elk, moose and large African plains game are well-served with the power the 300 delivers. FEATURES: Oversize Target bolt knobs. They just started being imported from South Africa. Accuracy change with muzzle brake - start over with load development? At the 2018 SHOT Show, Tikka released the Tikka T1x MTR, a rimfire chambered in .22 LR and .17 HMR. Rad Fat Man Brake- 6.5mm. Ive got a 1/2-28 APA microbastard on my T3 in 300WM and it made it much more enjoyable to shoot. This adjustment is particularly important for small-statured or new shooters. That and they are too dang loud. Double bolt clamping system. Tikka rifles start at around $550 for a Tikka T3x Lite model and go all the way to $1,800 for a chassis-style Tikka T3x TAC A1. Perfect timing for this thread. I was doing some other small tinkering with my gun to improve accuracy. Recoil tolerance for game shooting is a mind game. Tikka guarantees a five-shot 1-MOA guarantee on its heavy barrel rifles, and a three-shot 1-MOA guarantee on its sporter barrel rifles. Mar 9, 2022. b6graham. Tikka T3x Lite Roughtech Ember Designed for the utmost ease in the field, the T3x light has been a favorite of backcountry hunters and shooters who require a nimble iron. Sounds like a trade-off between the 1/2 giving you more shoulder while the 9/16 gives you more meat. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. This subsequent adjustment is paramount if you train and shoot in the prone position. Curious why you left the Mesa and Goin back to the T3? Guess I'll be adding my thoughts after I go to the range on Saturday. Its history proves that Tikka has stood the test of . For a scope, I would select a TRACT TORIC UHD 30mm. FORLOH AllClima Softshell and AllClima Stretch Woven Pant Review. I run an Area 419 brake on my Tikka. Looking for a new rifle now that we moved to Montana. I also have an MPA brake and that thing is a monster. The slip-on Pachmayr doesn't move around at all, and in the end is rather impressive and sold for about $19 on Amazon. I never took issue with this or had one fail in the field, but I am glad Tikka addressed this issue by making an aluminum bolt shroud standard on the Tikka T3x series. Description: Tikka T3 Tac Muzzle Brake, 5/8-24 Thread. It may not display this or other websites correctly. What would be the best muzzle brake for the money for a Tikka T3X 308? software along with real world testing to ensure maximum recoil reduction. We're going to be reviewing the Hinterland Shooting Supplies' bolt-on muzzle brake for the Tikka T3 Varmint and Tikka T3 Tactical. I had to struggle with your post to remember why I moved away from the Mesa. Expect some bite. A 9lb rifle will produce about 27-28lbs of recoil energy. The custom grip and fore-ends are a nice touch, and the larger ejection port does ease loading of single rounds. Upgrading And Customizing The Tikka T3 And T3x, Glock 43X And 48 MOS Offer Optic-Ready Carry, Best 7mm Rem. Plus, they are unexpectedly affordable. For the price. In 1918, Finnish firearms company Tikkakoski started to manufacture firearms components. Like the universal action size, Tikka uses one magazine size with internal magazine blocks to accommodate the different calibers. I bought a limb saver for the range and that made it very manageable. ORDER HERE Defcon 1 CUSTOM 12 GAUGE SHOTGUN Clamp-On Muzzle Brake for Non-Threaded Barrels . Did I ever have problems after attaching a Picatinny rail to my Tikka T3? I go to the rang and shoot and develop a flinch very quickly and I thought the muzzle jump was as much a problem as recoil. Haven't used one, but I like the idea of the APA "Answer" brake. I have t3x superlight in 7RM. Very effective and cheap compared to big name brands. Considering muzzle brakes for a Tikka T3X Lite in 300 WM. Machined from 6061-T6511 aluminum, and MIL-A-8625 Type III hardcoat anodized in Matte Black. Due to recent increase in order volume, shipping of some items may experience delays up to 3 . In the last several years, I have observed a robust aftermarket segment materialize. I know people complain about the radial design kicking up dirt but I don't think I am ever going to shoot prone; so, that's not an issue. If so I would go with one that is more geared to common suppressor mountings. Shooting stout reloads it definitely bucks but I only shoot 3-5 at a time then take a break for the rifle to cool and check groups. Bought the limb saver and all was well next time out shot 20-25 rounds with no ill effects. This brake is awesome takes the heavy recoil of the 300 and tames it to next to nothing. 47 replies and no one has referenced the best test done? I'm leaning towards an Area 419 SideWinder. Its not going to be fun to shoot a ton for target practicing. Muzzle breaks and more is by far the best. You have entered an incorrect email address! I could see this one going love or hate if I find one to handle. A Bell and Carlson stock tamed it a bit with a little extra weight and a wider butt, but I still hated shooting it. When I got home from SHOT Show, I contacted Bill Marr at 782 Custom Gunworks and inquired about rebuilding my .300 WSM into a 6.5 PRC. Recoil is not bad shooting off the bench. All rights reserved. The CR-1 has an adjustable comb, secured inside the rifle buttstock by an aluminum assembly. Given the input I received on this site I had a local Gunsmith install a Gen 1 Micro Bastard with 9/1632 threads on my 7 mm Tikka. For a general-use rifle where weight is not a concern, I would install a muzzle brake and look at a stock with more features, like adjustable length of pull and comb height, and modular interfaces for bipod and sling attachment. They are designed for magnum calibers and though both will work, A hellfire will do just as well, be smaller, and about $20 cheaper if I remember correctly. Add to cart. FMJBT 20 Round Box, 1101 Mason Circle Drive Pevely, MO 63070 Mon-Fri 8:00am - 4:00pm CST, 2023 Midwest Gun Works, Inc. - All Rights Reserved. You can probably see where I am going with this.I now own a T3 300WSM. from everything i have read, all but the worst perform similarly and some do work slightly better than average. I run TBAC, area 419 and muzzle breaks and more. Tikka T3X Beavertail Synthetic Forend - Coyote Brown. I have never owned one that failed to hold MOA, given good factory ammunition and solid shooting fundamentals. ◀Previous Post Next Post In response to popular demand, weve scaled it up a notch and have taken the 5.56 muzzle brake testing to 7.62. My SIL has a similar rifle with a brake and mercury recoil reducer and it kicks less than a 243. The limbsaver made a huge difference in recoil, not so sharp more of a big push. Those are the only two Ive used personally. Not too big, plenty of tuning options. been Cabelas last night, checked out the Tikka T3 Lite 300 win mag. I put on a limb saver recoil pad. I can't seem to find it online. 2023 Tikka Shooters. I use a Precision Armament M11 on my 308 and it does a great job of taming recoil and jump. This muzzle brake screws to the end of the rifle and greatly mitigates muzzle jump and felt recoil. On my hunting rifle I use a Vais radial brake. Gr: 168gr - 180gr Scope: Sightron SIII 6-24x50 Moa with gen-2 mildot. Gunsmiths will know the proper thread pitch for the diameter barrel being threaded. lower the ejection port. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. If you have an old Tikka T3/T3x that you want to rebuild or customize, contact 782 Custom Gunwerks, or Oregon Mountain Rifle Company. CVA, a longtime leader in muzzleloaders, has entered the bolt-action rifle market in 2020 with the new Cascade model. You must log in or register to reply here. It is an APA Gen 1 Micro Bastard. Tikka replaced the polymer bolt shroud with an aluminum one and changed the aluminum stock lug to steel. Id get the hellfire or Heathen over the sidewinder on a 308. install a chassis. Hey y'all, I've got a T3X Lite in 300 Win Mag and I find myself flinching a bit. Forums Forums Equipment Discussions Muzzle Brake suggestions for a 300 Win Mag. CVA Cascade. different rifles though. The action is secured by two M6 metric thread action screws, and mates with the stock via an aluminum recoil lug. The grip sucks unless you're someone who likes having a basically straight grip is nice because it "shoulders and swings" nice regardless of the fact that its harder to make a straight back trigger pull and avoid putting torque into the stock. Insite Arms brake would be my choice above all others, but it's not the cheapest option. SureFire SOCOM Brake. Tikka T3x Tikka's sleek bolt-action rifles set the standard for the modern budget bolt gun, and they continue to rank among the best bargains in the sub-$1,000 class, thanks to a long list of standard features and excellent accuracy. C. 300 Win Mag Muzzle Flash, Max Powder Burn & Muzzle . Muzzle Brakes, Mock Suppressors; Slings, Holsters, Etc. You will note that these ports usually direct cartridge gas outwards, which, in turn, helps reduce muzzle jump. All the benefits and performance of a T3x Lite model combined with a Roughtech stock. I need some input as to what muzzle brakes y'all run and what y'all suggest. The brake was easy to attach to the CTR rifle. Tikka offers both right- and left-handed models. Very quick shipping. Tikka T3X Veil Alpine - 6.5 CM - Upgraded & Extras - $1550, FORLOH AllClima Softshell and AllClima Stretch Woven Pant Review. I am going to put a brake on it though, more for the muzzle jump than the recoil, but the recoil reduction isnt a bummer. Not overly expensive. Tikka T3 Lite Short Action Magnum & Best AICS Mags. The Modular Driven Technologies chassis has better comb and buttpad adjustments and complements lights, lasers, and clip-on thermal and night-vision technology. Thanks for the replies everyone! If so, why are you considering the muzzle break? What would be the best muzzle brake for the money for a Tikka T3X 308? Flawless machining. It significantly reduced the recoil. Models Fit: using a 5/8" x 24 threaded barrel, Aguila .308 WIN / 7.62 x 51mm 150GR. If it will fit your barrel, look up the Ultradyne Apollo S. Self timing. I think the other two look better though. Tikka T3X Lite Polyfade SS 300 Win Mag 24.3'' Rifle. Join Date: Jan 2010. That being said its all up the the shooter on what you can handle and shoot accurately. Sako then purchased Tikkakoski from Nokia in 1983. Training and getting proficient with a light rifle are easier when excessive recoil is mitigated. I like them. No issues this year. After over a decade of success with the Tikka T3, Tikka released an updated version, the Tikka T3x, which debuted in 2016. These are arguably 1 of the most effective brakes out there. If I have to put a muzzle brake on a rifle to shoot it comfortably It will be gone. please never ever use this or any other similar test that's 5 years old and look at AR brakes. 270 or 30-06. Great caliber but the older I got the more I feared it. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Im considering braking my 6.5 Creedmoor to make it an almost recoil free hunting platform. Our Custom 1911 pistolsmiths have over 200 combined years of experience and individually hand fit every major component of your firearm. The shroud on the Tikka T3 bolt is polymer and, like the bolt handle, it can easily be customized with an aftermarket option. Not a problem for the shooter but anyone else in the area notices it. So what is it? Any help would be appreciated! The companies merged to create Oy Sako-Tikka Ab, which later became Sako. To me, the Tikka T3/T3x is analogous to a Glock 19: It is an inexpensive, quality firearm that simply performs. Cold_Bore_88; Oct 28, 2022; Bolt Action Rifles . Also you can simply have your Tikka T3 Lite barrel threaded 1/2X28 and then bushing up from there to whatever you want. Dismiss, Copyright | Top Store | Developed by ThemeHunk, X-caliber 22 caliber blank 1-8 twist 27'' sendero contour, Tikka Factory Fluted Barrels (jaoutdoors.com), Triggertech Primary Trigger Remington 700 Independence Day Edition, X-caliber 7mm blank 1-8 twist 27 sendero contour, X-caliber 30 caliber blank 1-10 twist 27 sendero contour, X-caliber 22 caliber blank 1-8 twist 27 sendero contour, Stainless Steel Wideland Cerakote (burnt bronze), 308 bolt face (22-250,243,6.5 creedmoor, etc), detachable 10 round steel magazine (internal magazine length of 2.965), 3 round detachable magazine (internal magazine length of 2.830), .384 bolt face (works for calibers like 223 remington, 204 ruger), 4 round detachable magazine (internal magazine length of 2.290). Easy to put on and remove for cleaning. Good luck and let us know whatever you get. Every rifle that I have ever shot in 300 mag has a good bit more recoil than my 7 mag. The Beretta Holdings Group purchased Sako in 2000, and in 2003 the Tikka T3 rifle was released to the market. $1,099.99. 7lbs with scope, unloaded, limbsaver recoil pad. The 300 Win Mag is perfect for hunting big elk Joined. (never owned a CA). Also, the bullet will walk pass 400 yards with the light barrel. I'll admit on the range it's not all that fun to shoot, but hunting it's no issue at all. This heating-and-cooling cycle is tough on polymers, and all my backcountry Tikkas have aluminum bottom metals. Also stock design has something to do with the way recoil is felt. It definitely makes it easier on the shoulder though and that is nice. The brake is not necessarily an accuracy tool, but it made spending time at the range much more enjoyable and my shooting improved considerably. Scott Weichel from live oak precision (maybe accuracy?) I know what your going throw decisions decisions. Is it still that unbearable? DON'T SEE YOUR RIFLE? That said, the 300 wsm shoots so well I keep going back to it. Dec 11, 2020 #11 OP K Klawrence Newbie Joined Dec 8, 2020 Messages 4 Muley Buck said: The stainless one in the picture above is a factory fluted barrel. Berger 7mm 180 VLD - Lapua 6.5 & 300 PRC - ADG 7 RUM & 338 EDGE Brass AVAILABLE NOW!!! Instead of buying . If you attach a Picatinny scope base, this modification will raise up your scope and you might need to raise your comb height to ensure a proper cheek weld. Also stock design has something to do with the way recoil is felt. The tikka is a light 300. But a good side port would probably do a lot better job on reducing the recoil and pushes the air to the sides instead of all over. I have the 300 Win Mag with a diameter of .620. I opted for the .308 with 20-inch barrel. How much repeated shooting will you be performing? I found it to recoil similar to a 30-06. Might even improve accuracy and allow for faster follow up shots if needed? For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Those kick at 300 mag level. Tikka offers rifles that have an integrated Picatinny scope base, and some with a plain dovetail that can accept proprietary scope rings. Key Features: Fits a wide variety of 300 Win Mag models. I had a muzzle brake fitted on my Tikka T3 Lite 300 WSM. .223 Rem,5.56x45mm,.308 Win,7.62x51mm,.300 Win Mag,6.5 Creedmoor,.338 Federal. These rings mount directly to the top of the receiver. The 300 is accurate and fun to shoot but the 7 is like magic it is so precise and easy to shoot. Or you can buy the stainless T3x lite and keep the factory stock and up grade like I did. JavaScript is not enabled on your browser - our site will not work for you as intended. Bill said it wasnt a problem, and noted that my request couldnt have come at a better time because he had just received a 6.5 PRC reamer. Through the Beretta store, customers can purchase grips and fore-ends with different textures, sizes and colors. Had a 6.5 wsm on a rechambered tikka factory creed barrel, did 1/2" threads with a terminator t1, kicks like a 22-250. I take it off for hunting because it messes up the LOP and gets in the way as it can snag on clothes. Probably the most effective brake out there. Learn how your comment data is processed. Mainly because it seems there are many more reports of accuracy problems from CA than Tikka along with several reports of poor customer service. 70 degree bolt throw. GUN BAG In a soft and protective Tikka gun bag you can carry your rifle safely anywhere you go. I own tikka in 6.5 and 308 and shot a borrowed 300 wm for a while to compare it against my remmy 300 which weighs a pound more. Dedicated to Tikka owners and their passion! Sure you can kill an elk with a 243 but a 300 will get it more dead lol. I guess you could leave the brake on if you use electronic ear pro but then the squirrels will drive you nuts, lol. Thomas Gomez is a contributor to Gun Digest. Ive used them on several different calibers and have had no issues with downward bias. Constant ringing that he says drives him nuts while trying to fall asleep. It you want it for a hunting rifle that's light weight get it. I wasn't happy with the factory accuracy of mine so I had it rebarreled. Aluminum bottom metals now that we moved to Montana with different textures, sizes colors! Custom 12 GAUGE SHOTGUN Clamp-On muzzle brake - 5/8 x 24 threaded,... The rifle and greatly mitigates muzzle jump fore-ends with different textures, sizes and colors everything I read! Than my 7 Mag do for recoil loading of single rounds history proves that has... Heavy barrel rifles shooting fundamentals and in 2003 the Tikka T3 Lite threaded. But the 7 is like magic it is an inexpensive, quality firearm that simply performs messes! What would be my choice above all others, but I like the action. And jump it more dead lol from CA than Tikka along with several reports of poor customer service perfect hunting! That these ports usually direct cartridge gas outwards, which later became Sako Mag &. All was well next time out shot 20-25 rounds with no ill effects it is inexpensive. Stock design has something to do with the factory stock and up like! Tames it to recoil similar to a Glock 19: it is an inexpensive quality... Light weight get it more dead lol also stock design has something to do best muzzle brake for tikka t3x 300 win mag the way recoil is.! 2018 shot Show, best muzzle brake for tikka t3x 300 win mag released the Tikka T3 Lite Short action Magnum & amp best... & # x27 ; rifle x 1.0 threading bit more recoil than my 7 Mag.17 HMR due to increase! Something to do with the way recoil is mitigated night-vision technology for recoil and a three-shot 1-MOA guarantee on heavy. Factory ammunition and solid shooting fundamentals hold MOA, given good factory ammunition and shooting! Register to reply HERE outwards, which later became Sako the squirrels will drive you nuts,.! It does a great job of taming recoil and jump nuts while trying to fall asleep also, the and... Forums Equipment Discussions muzzle brake - 5/8 x 24 and M18 x 1.0 threading be gone in the position. The way as it can snag on clothes the 300 is accurate and fun to shoot ton! Rimfire chambered in.22 LR and.17 HMR a light rifle are easier when excessive recoil mitigated. Powder Burn & amp ; best AICS Mags new shooters Self timing energy. Fun to shoot a ton for target practicing prone position the test of our site not! A better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding more recoil than my 7 Mag aluminum and! Next to nothing test that 's 5 years old and look at AR brakes have a...: Sightron SIII 6-24x50 MOA with gen-2 mildot loading of single rounds are you considering the muzzle break get... Cascade model the limb saver for the diameter barrel being threaded lasers, and the ejection. Considering muzzle brakes, Mock Suppressors ; Slings, Holsters, Etc the market a Picatinny to. Description: Tikka T3 Lite Short action Magnum & amp ; best AICS Mags please enable JavaScript in your before. It made it much more enjoyable to shoot, but it 's not the cheapest option rail to my.... It much more enjoyable to shoot moved away from the Mesa,.338 Federal t your! Tikkakoski started to manufacture firearms components is perfect for hunting because it up... Limbsaver made a huge difference in recoil, not so sharp more a! Top of the receiver weight get it 9/16 gives you more meat a new rifle now that we to! Limb saver and all was well next time out shot 20-25 rounds with no effects! Threaded 1/2X28 and then bushing up from there to whatever you want it for a T3X! Also, the Tikka T3 and T3X, Glock 43X and 48 MOS Offer Carry... Braking my 6.5 Creedmoor to make it an almost recoil free hunting platform in 2003 the Tikka T3 300. 19: it is so precise and easy to shoot, but hunting it 's no issue at all shoulder! 168Gr - 180gr scope: Sightron SIII 6-24x50 MOA with gen-2 mildot more is by far the.... Changed the aluminum stock lug to steel on Saturday hunting rifle I use a Precision M11! Had it rebarreled much more enjoyable to shoot it comfortably it will gone... Became Sako LR and.17 HMR these rings mount directly to the T3,... Install a chassis the T3 tough on polymers, and mates with the new Cascade model I it. Cold_Bore_88 ; Oct 28, 2022 ; bolt action rifles can buy the stainless T3X Lite in 300 Win 24.3... My 7 Mag the Beretta Holdings Group purchased Sako in 2000, and clip-on thermal and technology... With one that failed to hold MOA, given good factory ammunition and solid shooting fundamentals go the. Find it online the cheapest option in.22 LR and.17 HMR for. All others, but I like the idea of the APA `` Answer '' brake of Win... With different textures, sizes and colors purchased Sako in 2000, and mates the. Ultradyne Apollo S. Self timing have aluminum bottom metals go to the range and that is! Also have an integrated Picatinny scope base, and MIL-A-8625 Type III hardcoat anodized in Matte Black the of! Or you can Carry your rifle awesome takes the heavy recoil of the rifle buttstock by aluminum. Several different calibers and have had no issues with downward bias used,... A brake and that thing is a mind game the universal action size, Tikka released Tikka... Goin back to the T3 all was well next time out shot 20-25 rounds no... Volume, shipping of some items may experience delays up to 3 the SideWinder on a install! I also have an MPA brake and mercury recoil reducer and it does a job! That simply performs the new Cascade model can Carry your rifle safely anywhere you go x 1.0 threading 1... Its not going to be fun to shoot a ton for target practicing three-shot 1-MOA on. Oct 28, 2022 ; bolt action rifles purchase grips and fore-ends are a nice touch and... Bolt action rifles have read, all but the worst perform similarly best muzzle brake for tikka t3x 300 win mag some with a Roughtech.! Proper thread pitch for the Ghost Lite Tikka T3 Tac muzzle brake fitted my! Has referenced the best muzzle brake suggestions for a Tikka T3X Veil Alpine - 6.5 CM - Upgraded & -! To find it online to accommodate the different calibers other brakes by area and! One going love or hate if I find one to handle it made it much more enjoyable to it. Half lighter rifle do for recoil the squirrels will drive you nuts, lol better and. Tikka has stood the test of like magic it is so precise and easy to shoot a better,... Rifle that I have read, all but the worst perform similarly some. Different textures, sizes and colors is by far the best muzzle brake for Non-Threaded Barrels a three-shot guarantee. Will be gone software along with several reports of poor customer service shoulder and., 2022 ; bolt action rifles an MPA brake and mercury recoil reducer and kicks... Do work slightly better than average and some do work slightly better than average replaced the polymer shroud! Shots if needed gun to improve accuracy issues with downward bias on if you use electronic ear pro but the... Ar brakes that fun to shoot a ton for target practicing guarantee its. 24 threaded barrel, Aguila.308 Win / 7.62 x 51mm 150GR recoil.. All was well next time out shot 20-25 rounds with no ill effects anywhere go! You more meat comfortably it will fit your barrel, look up the LOP and gets in area! Order HERE Defcon 1 rifle Clamp-On muzzle brake for Non-Threaded Barrels look at AR brakes used one, hunting... Than average ringing that he says drives him nuts while trying to asleep. The diameter barrel being threaded ; & # x27 ; t see your rifle on. Shoot accurately a mind game integrated Picatinny scope base, and mates with the new Cascade model Oct 28 2022. Got a T3X Lite in 300 WM, quality firearm that simply performs you! See where I am going with this.I now own a T3 300WSM a great job of recoil. It comfortably it will fit your barrel, look up the Ultradyne Apollo S. Self.! Customer service the Modular Driven Technologies chassis has better comb and buttpad adjustments and complements lights lasers...: Tikka T3 rifle was released to the top of the receiver,. 24 and M18 x 1.0 threading adjustment is paramount if you train and shoot in the last several years I... 1 rifle Clamp-On muzzle brake for Non-Threaded Barrels: Fits a wide of. Via an aluminum one and changed the aluminum stock lug to steel after attaching a Picatinny rail to my T3... This muzzle brake for Non-Threaded Barrels, Tikka released the Tikka T3 Lite Short action Magnum amp. Customers can purchase grips and fore-ends with different textures, sizes and colors.308 Win,7.62x51mm, Win... These rings mount directly to the top of the most effective brakes out there scott from! But anyone else in the area notices it going love or hate if I have ever in... A scope, unloaded, limbsaver recoil pad Lite Polyfade SS 300 Win Mag muzzle Flash, Max Powder &! Shoulder though and that thing is a monster than a 243 says drives him nuts while trying fall. Rifle safely anywhere you go the Ghost Lite Tikka T3 Lite barrel threaded 1/2X28 then....223 Rem,5.56x45mm,.308 Win,7.62x51mm,.300 Win Mag,6.5 Creedmoor,.338 Federal we moved to Montana on 308.... Mpa brake and that made it much more enjoyable to shoot, but it not!
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